Posts by Ultimate Axiom

28

Have the British military invaded your country - see map for details

by besty in

jw
friends

.

every schoolboy used to know that at the height of the empire, almost a quarter of the atlas was coloured pink, showing the extent of british rule.. but that oft recited fact dramatically understates the remarkable global reach achieved by this country.. a new study has found that at various times the british have invaded almost 90 per cent of the countries around the globe.. .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/british-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-luxembourg.html.

Ultimate Axiom

Satanus, you are right, I missed that sub tly in the title - and you are also right, IT has many more means than military and economic tools at it disposal. But information is an old tool that is becoming ever more difficult to control, and so long as the internet survives, that will be a tool that will prevent invasion rather than help it.

20

Do most people become Jehovah's Witnesses out of fear they might be destroyed at Armageddon ?

by Finkelstein in

a practical question concerning human psychology .

it very well be that it was the jws who were.

responsible for first approaching this posing question to people to incite their interest and concern.. i can confidently say it was for my 20 something year old mother back in the early 50's.. unfortunately people who did so, weren't completely discerning the probable commercial .

Ultimate Axiom

I don't think the fear fo Armegoddon had much to do with my conversion. But I think that 00DAD has a point as to while people stay. But I think it has more to do with their love of the network of friends etc than a fear of shunning. If they had friends outside the Org, they wouldn't give a f**k for shunning.

28

Have the British military invaded your country - see map for details

by besty in

jw
friends

.

every schoolboy used to know that at the height of the empire, almost a quarter of the atlas was coloured pink, showing the extent of british rule.. but that oft recited fact dramatically understates the remarkable global reach achieved by this country.. a new study has found that at various times the british have invaded almost 90 per cent of the countries around the globe.. .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/british-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-luxembourg.html.

Ultimate Axiom

Invasion takes more than one form. Yes, we the British invaded most of the world at some point or another, but these days it's taking a different form. The USA failed miserably to invade Vietnam militarily, but has achieved so much more economically since then. We will all be colonies of the Chinese before long.

60

What attracted you to the Watchtower?

by Christ Alone in

jw
friends

what attracted you to the watchtower?

were you raised in it?

if not, what caused you to convert?

Ultimate Axiom

I still feel a certain reproach from those that were “born in” towards those that were converted. I understand that feeling from purely objective perspective, given the passage of time. I would only say to those that were born in, do not hold that too much against your parents. Hindsight is easy. I would love to turn back the clock. Oh how much!

I do not consider my teenage self to be simple minded, unread, or to have a dead end life – I fought hard against what was presented before me because I didn’t want to give up what I had up till then held as my future in life, but I found the answers very compelling. I didn’t have a leaning towards needing to search for “meaning”, even though I lived trough the hippie period. I was, as steve2 put it, optimistically gullible. Please do not condemn me - or your parents, for that.

34

Can you list watchtower articles that claim anything from the 'faithful slave' should be taken as from jehovah himself?

by EndofMysteries in

just a few wts that put to the effect anything from them should be taken as from jehovah himself and also with elders or being disfellowshipped, that it means jehovah himself is angry with them, that's it's punishment from him.

.

Ultimate Axiom

AnnOMaly – a very interesting piece from Carl Olof Jonsson, and you’re right, I did find it an interesting read. And Leolaia, a very good précis on the subject, thank you. If I have to disagree with anything you posted (and I acknowledge the IF) it is this; “So if Knorr actually predicted anything, it is this: … ”

My point was that Knorr (and/or Franz) predicted nothing at all! That is, nothing that actually came true. Everything HE predicted failed. He took an (after the event) some one else’s prediction that did come true, ignored the rest, and claimed it for himself. Intellectual dishonesty at the highest.

24

Psychics fail test in controlled setting

by EntirelyPossible in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20145664.

the test by researchers at goldsmiths, university of london, tried to establish whether mediums could use psychic abilities to identify something about five unseen volunteers.. the results, carried out under test conditions, did not show evidence of any unexplained powers of insight.. but medium patricia putt said this experiment "doesn't prove a thing".. this halloween challenge was an attempt to investigate whether professional mediums could demonstrate their psychic powers in a controlled setting - by inviting them to deduce something about people they had never met and could not see or hear..

Ultimate Axiom

shamus100 - you are thinking that psychics are rubbish! - see I always knew I was psychic - well, I always knew it since tomorrow that is.

34

Can you list watchtower articles that claim anything from the 'faithful slave' should be taken as from jehovah himself?

by EndofMysteries in

just a few wts that put to the effect anything from them should be taken as from jehovah himself and also with elders or being disfellowshipped, that it means jehovah himself is angry with them, that's it's punishment from him.

.

Ultimate Axiom

I know this is somewhat off-topic to the original thread, but I have read a little more about this “prediction” that the "faithful and discreet slave" supposedly gave as they were “guided by Jehovah's unerring spirit”.

I found the text of the speech that Knorr gave on September 20th 1942 in a booklet called, “Peace – Can it last?”, (although the booklet calls it the New World Theocratic Assembly rather than United Theocratic Announcers Assembly, but I’m assuming it’s the same one as the dates match) – you can get a copy from here;

http://ia600304.us.archive.org/27/items/WatchtowerLibrary/booklets/1942_pcl_E.pdf

Nowhere in this speech does Knorr predict the outcome claimed. He does in fact refer to a number of possible outcomes to the war, including the setting up of a World Government, a sort of USW, on pages 11-12 he says, “Those of a democratic mind hope for a United States of the world, a "family of nations", a "world association" based on the United Nations, including a "world legion". Says one spokesman: "An international constitution and government will be a postwar necessity."”.

He goes on to quote the prediction of a US cabinet member who, as far as we know, made his prediction without the guidance of Jehovah’s unerring spirit - “One of the president's own cabinet members says: "A world organization, with the United Nations as its base, will determine the peace, and the postwar world will be policed by the allied powers."” (page 12). And what is more, Knorr does not even endorse this prediction any more than he does any of the others.

So in actual fact, the "faithful and discreet slave" did not make it known that the democracies would win World War II and set up the UN, it was the other way round, the democracies made this known to the faithful and discreet slave! This arrogation of someone else’s prediction is extraordinary, even by Watchtower standards, especially when you consider that the 1960 Watchtower was written by the very same people (Knorr and Franz) who wrote that 1942 speech.

60

What attracted you to the Watchtower?

by Christ Alone in

jw
friends

what attracted you to the watchtower?

were you raised in it?

if not, what caused you to convert?

Ultimate Axiom

Unlike many who have responded to your question so far CA, I was not born into it. I am one of those who heard the message, liked what I heard, and swallowed it hook, line and sinker. So I would like to put our side of the story, especially as I began by raising my two children “in it”, although I am eternally grateful that after I left, they both followed suit - I might inject here that their mother, my eldest sister, and the guy I studied with (who was born in) are all still loyal dubs to this day.

It was 1969 and I was 16 at the time. I didn't realise I was naïve and gullible, like most teenagers I thought I knew everything, at least I thought I knew a lot more than my father did. And no, I did not research the beliefs and history thoroughly. I asked questions, got satisfactory answers - I simply didn’t believe that people would lie to me so sincerely. And I don’t think even now, that they thought they were lying – victims of victims as they say.

I considered myself to be an atheist at the time, and when my eldest sister had begun to study, I just humoured her. But following a séance with my other sisters and a friend, my atheism was turned upside down – I had no explanation for what happened during that séance, but the explanation given by the witnesses seemed to make sense. So I started studying too.

I was drawn to the paradise earth (particularly as it was only a few years away), the international brotherhood of man, the lack of class distinctions, the principled stand against war, no money was asked or expected, the explanation for the existence of evil, the fact that evil would end, the fact that they seemed to have an answer for everything – and yes, the fact that they were good, generous, honest, friendly and loving people. And yes, most of those I knew then, I still regard as good, genuine people. I can honestly say that I have only met one really nasty piece of work within the witness community; the fact that he married my eldest sister was a real tragedy for her, but more so for her daughter (his step daughter).

Within a year of studying I had quit school, got baptised and was a regular pioneer with dreams of Bethel, Gilead and missionary work before me - all to the great disappointment of my father. But I was prepared to fight and defend “the truth” with all my heart – my only sorrow at the time was that I would not be old enough to be an elder before Armageddon. I didn't believe it was the truth, I knew it!

Ten years later and I was far from knowing anything - the shelf on which I had put so many unanswered and unanswerable questions had collapsed. I had begun to research some things and so much no longer made sense.

I walked away in 1978 with most of me still believing it was the truth, still believing that Armageddon was just around the corner and would soon end my life (it was a long and painful exit). I attended the odd meeting for the next year or so, the last being the district assembly in Twickenham, London, in 1980.

Looking back it is easy to say that I should have been more objective, more critical, more cynical and researched it. After all, if you are going to turn your life over to it, at least research it first. And I agree; I stand guilty as charged. I have no explanation for why I was so gullible, perhaps that is why I am the complete opposite now, a complete cynic. I can understand why those “born in” find it difficult to understand how people like me can be taken in by it, but unless you experience that feeling of knowing that this is the truth, you probably never will.

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